Come on, they literally have the serial numbers of the Tochka-U missile, a type only the Ukrainian army uses, that match both the one dropped on a Donetsk marketplace in March and this one at the train station, I’m not saying the Russians aren’t committing atrocities but this isn’t one of them. This is another attempt to drag NATO further into the conflict, just like the “Russian attack” on the nuclear power plant, and the “Russians” shooting and killing reporters, not to mention U.S. Intelligence officials coming straight out and saying “yea we lied about Russian chemical attacks”. Like I said it’s all but certain Russia has violated international laws and done evil things but we can’t burn the truth just because the story is convenient.
Honestly, my emotional side wants to say no because this is a disgusting act but the objective side of me says who has more to gain from this, Putin or Zelensky, why would the Russians not just saturation bomb the entire area if killing civilians was their goal or at the very least a non-concern, and which side has been staging or claiming atrocities against them more in hopes of garnering additional support. Those questions see Ukraine as the perpetrator.
There is a strong belief that Russians would not commit such atrocities and as long as they continue to believe such myths, there will be no change and Russians will happily “give” their lives for the greater aim of “denazify” the Ukraine.
Oh I don’t doubt that they can and have committed atrocities through the invasion but all I’m saying is we have the visual proof that there aren’t constant air raids going on and not much of this attack compares well to what occurred in WW2.
Krematorsk is very close to the Russian separatist regions and is an important rail station in the region, so has a strategic meaning. The Russians do still have tochka-U bombs. Has been confirmed by the pentagon (so maybe not trustworthy and independent enough). What I find a little strange is this message «за детей», it is really cynical to bomb children and women with such a message.
Yea not sure how reliable the Pentagon is at this point but regardless, the Russian separatist regions are to the East of Krematorsk, missile came from the West and went East.
Not necessarily comparing the scope of events as I mentioned above. It's more the nuances of repeated regional genocide, cultural wars, and the repeat of similar dynamics in Eastern Europe. Obviously pales in comparison when looking at scope, but to me it seems the heartlessness is very much present as more evidence comes forward. The Russians haven't changed the way they do business in 200 years.
All I’m searching for is the truth, like I said, I’m not doubting that Russians commit atrocities, but i am doubting this specific one as Russian once I looked at the facts that were available, seems like a lot of “conspiracy theories” have been coming true over the past year also, just saying
Not sure which “conspiracy theories” you refer to, if you speak some Russian, you can check out Krasilshchik account on Instagram or holod.media, both are independent journalists from Russia. They have first hand, thoroughly checked eye witness reports on their page and these missils seem to have been used by Russian military for training purposes in Belarus in February (though I’d need to double check where I saw that information).
Yes I saw those posts but didn’t they say the missile are owned and operated by the Belarusians, not Russia, also the trajectory has been mapped out of the missile due to the way the Tochka functions, it separates the engine from the munition prior to impact, and from the photos it is clear the direction of the weapon came from the South West and went North East, the territory it departed from is held by Ukraine.
My only argument there is that we have t seen massive air raids or week long non-stop artillery barrages by Russia on any Ukrainian city, have cities been destroyed, absolutely, but I just don’t see the same type of “Kill ‘em all, be as cruel as possible” actions that the Nazis were infamous for when compared to Russia today. The Nazis didn’t allow any civilian corridors out of Leningrad, Russia has accepted them for Mariupol, the supposed last bastion of Azov.
Iraq has roughly the same size population as Ukraine at ~40M. Even taking the Ukrainian/US overestimates of civilian deaths, how does that compare to Iraq Body Count (https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/) during the US-led invasion in 2003? Looks like first two months of conflict in Iraq killed ~7500 civilians. Compare to UN estimates of 3500 total in Ukraine (1500 of those in Donetsk) in these past 2 months.
Russians have been more careful than the US, even though the forces are more evenly matched. Not Israel level care, but that's hard to do over thousands of miles.
They havent been careful by any means. Like I said earlier, not comparing this to other events we were involved in. They're all bad. This has implications potentially linked to broader Russian territorial aggression in continental Europe, that's the biggest difference.
Come on, they literally have the serial numbers of the Tochka-U missile, a type only the Ukrainian army uses, that match both the one dropped on a Donetsk marketplace in March and this one at the train station, I’m not saying the Russians aren’t committing atrocities but this isn’t one of them. This is another attempt to drag NATO further into the conflict, just like the “Russian attack” on the nuclear power plant, and the “Russians” shooting and killing reporters, not to mention U.S. Intelligence officials coming straight out and saying “yea we lied about Russian chemical attacks”. Like I said it’s all but certain Russia has violated international laws and done evil things but we can’t burn the truth just because the story is convenient.
Do you think this was staged? genuine question
Honestly, my emotional side wants to say no because this is a disgusting act but the objective side of me says who has more to gain from this, Putin or Zelensky, why would the Russians not just saturation bomb the entire area if killing civilians was their goal or at the very least a non-concern, and which side has been staging or claiming atrocities against them more in hopes of garnering additional support. Those questions see Ukraine as the perpetrator.
I'm not sure if it's "staged" but it's so fishy I think it could be
There is a strong belief that Russians would not commit such atrocities and as long as they continue to believe such myths, there will be no change and Russians will happily “give” their lives for the greater aim of “denazify” the Ukraine.
Oh I don’t doubt that they can and have committed atrocities through the invasion but all I’m saying is we have the visual proof that there aren’t constant air raids going on and not much of this attack compares well to what occurred in WW2.
Krematorsk is very close to the Russian separatist regions and is an important rail station in the region, so has a strategic meaning. The Russians do still have tochka-U bombs. Has been confirmed by the pentagon (so maybe not trustworthy and independent enough). What I find a little strange is this message «за детей», it is really cynical to bomb children and women with such a message.
Yea not sure how reliable the Pentagon is at this point but regardless, the Russian separatist regions are to the East of Krematorsk, missile came from the West and went East.
Not necessarily comparing the scope of events as I mentioned above. It's more the nuances of repeated regional genocide, cultural wars, and the repeat of similar dynamics in Eastern Europe. Obviously pales in comparison when looking at scope, but to me it seems the heartlessness is very much present as more evidence comes forward. The Russians haven't changed the way they do business in 200 years.
All I’m searching for is the truth, like I said, I’m not doubting that Russians commit atrocities, but i am doubting this specific one as Russian once I looked at the facts that were available, seems like a lot of “conspiracy theories” have been coming true over the past year also, just saying
Not sure which “conspiracy theories” you refer to, if you speak some Russian, you can check out Krasilshchik account on Instagram or holod.media, both are independent journalists from Russia. They have first hand, thoroughly checked eye witness reports on their page and these missils seem to have been used by Russian military for training purposes in Belarus in February (though I’d need to double check where I saw that information).
Yes I saw those posts but didn’t they say the missile are owned and operated by the Belarusians, not Russia, also the trajectory has been mapped out of the missile due to the way the Tochka functions, it separates the engine from the munition prior to impact, and from the photos it is clear the direction of the weapon came from the South West and went North East, the territory it departed from is held by Ukraine.
Here's some context about Putin and how the Eastern front, specifically the Battle for Leningrad, has likely shaped his world view.
https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/in-the-shadow-of-vladimir-putins?s=w
My only argument there is that we have t seen massive air raids or week long non-stop artillery barrages by Russia on any Ukrainian city, have cities been destroyed, absolutely, but I just don’t see the same type of “Kill ‘em all, be as cruel as possible” actions that the Nazis were infamous for when compared to Russia today. The Nazis didn’t allow any civilian corridors out of Leningrad, Russia has accepted them for Mariupol, the supposed last bastion of Azov.
Iraq has roughly the same size population as Ukraine at ~40M. Even taking the Ukrainian/US overestimates of civilian deaths, how does that compare to Iraq Body Count (https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/) during the US-led invasion in 2003? Looks like first two months of conflict in Iraq killed ~7500 civilians. Compare to UN estimates of 3500 total in Ukraine (1500 of those in Donetsk) in these past 2 months.
Russians have been more careful than the US, even though the forces are more evenly matched. Not Israel level care, but that's hard to do over thousands of miles.
They havent been careful by any means. Like I said earlier, not comparing this to other events we were involved in. They're all bad. This has implications potentially linked to broader Russian territorial aggression in continental Europe, that's the biggest difference.